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The Oakland Raiders End Zone
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East Bay Grease
Official Tower of Power Stat Beaver
Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 1135
Location: Manhattan
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 Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:55 pm Post subject: HOW TO TALK FOOTBALL: The EZ Way to Respectfully Disagree ;) |
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The End Zone Bar & Grill is a place to discuss football. This is a place to discuss the End Zone Bar & Grill.
We're a family, with a history that stretches back well over a decade. We've cheered together and cried together. Many of us have met at one time or another, sharing the rites of a Raider gameday. But even if we've never met in the flesh, we are part of a team, and we care enough about the team as a whole to put some effort in to making it function smoothly.
Occasionally we have blow-ups that result in hurt feelings, anger, resentment, even participants leaving our community. This is where we can all collaborate to avoid that outcome. It's not just a place for participants in a conflict to debate what went wrong, but for other group members to help with their ideas, observations, and proposals. Though this isn't where our disagreements originate, it IS a place to constructively examine the way they sometimes get out of hand, so that we can avoid it happening in the future.
Things we might discuss here (and these are just top-of-the-head proposals):
• What kind of place do we want the End Zone to be?
• What, if any, are the ground rules?
• What are the limits of what's okay?
• What behavior is out of line?
• What's the difference between strong disagreement and personal attack?
• What can you do when someone misunderstands you?
...or whatever. There's nothing formal going on here, we'll just start yakking and see where it goes. It may get a little contentious, but if we're all clear that our intention is to promote understanding, give support to the group, and have fun, it'll be useful and worthwhile.
Please, participate!
NOTE: This is not a place for a no-holds-barred free-for-all, it's a thread on the subject of how to AVOID a no-holds-barred free-for-all. If you WANT a no-holds-barred free-for-all, well...maybe you can start a thread for that. ;)
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Jon
Captain Douche
Joined: 05 May 2005
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Location: Seattle, WA.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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I'll take a crack at bullet number 2 through 5 for a 1000 Bob!
I think it's up to each of us to yelp when injured and listen when someone yelps. I think that leaves those who enjoy it ruff to do that and those that don't to not have to...and anything in between. We're not cookie cutter people and we all have experiential differentiation.
If we set rules, then they run the risk of turning to dogma, and those that are charged with or attempt to enforce them become the fuzz.
The key bit of that is that we have to respect when someone is hurt. Who really wants any of us to feel crappy here??
Just my 2 cents
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Turo
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Feb 2005
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:34 am Post subject: |
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Well spoken, and welcomed.
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Island
Maryjane Milk Shake
Joined: 19 Feb 2005
Posts: 576
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| Jon wrote: | | I'll take a crack at bullet number 2 through 5 for a 1000 Bob! |
| Jon wrote: | | Just my 2 cents |
Hmmm.... Is it a thousand bob (that comes out to roughly 85 dollars), or is it two cents? 
Just being a smartarse 
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Jon
Captain Douche
Joined: 05 May 2005
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Location: Seattle, WA.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:18 am Post subject: |
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lol
Let's see, Grease is Bob...it's 1000 Raider bux.....which is about equal to 2 cents these days I believe.
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East Bay Grease
Official Tower of Power Stat Beaver
Joined: 11 Feb 2005
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Location: Manhattan
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| Jon wrote: | | If we set rules, then they run the risk of turning to dogma, and those that are charged with or attempt to enforce them become the fuzz. |
Totally, and when I was writing what I wrote at the top of this thread, I was concerned that it not seem as if I was pushing Robert's Rules of Order or some shit. ("Call the previous question. Do I have a second? Aha, gotcha! I didn't say 'Simon says'! Notify the sargent-at-arms: You are suspended from posting for 4 days.") Freewheeling fun has worked for us, historically, and it's just a matter of getting back to something we generally do well.
| Jon wrote: | | I think it's up to each of us to yelp when injured and listen when someone yelps. I think that leaves those who enjoy it ruff to do that and those that don't to not have to...and anything in between. We're not cookie cutter people and we all have experiential differentiation. |
I agree. The thing that's tough is that if someone's hurt, their form of yelping might not be "Hey, that hurt, help me out here" but rather "Oh you're gonna play rough, are you? You hurt me, i'm gonna hurt you back!" (and in saying that, I'm not singling anyone out--I myself have handled a punch that was thrown at me in both those ways. I've also just walked away, to the point of spending a year reading but not posting.)
Anyway, after all the hard feelings and accusations that have been generated by our disagreements about JR, and Shheye's suggestion that we each take a look back at our own posts, I went back to the month or so before the '07 draft, figuring I'd start there and scan to the past season to see what part my posts had played in getting us where we are. I'll post something more when I've gotten further. BUT what I will say now that it's fascinating to look at the dialogue we were having that month.
For one thing, the participation was incredible, especially given that we were coming out of the worst Raider season any of had ever seen. The posts were dozens a day, participation in VERY roughly this order: Doc, Shheye, Billiam, Cranberry, Turo, Bdogg, Jon, Rupert, me, RaiderDan, AJ, Island, Dick, FANG (as RaiderSoulStealer--until he was banned mid-month), Brick, Raider Roy, RaiderIVLife, Utah Man, Kobuk, Rob, Oakland65...not sure if I remember seeing Boz or Joe during the stretch I looked at, but they might have piped in too.
For another, though there were disagreements they were pretty good-natured. The only thing that approached nastiness was a little flare-up between Doc and Cranberry and Shheye and Rupert over C-Wood (natch). A key thing stood out to me: every now and then, people complimented each other. There were a lot more of these: "Good point." "Nice find." "Excellent breakdown." "That's a great question." "Fascinating link." "Exactly." Boy, it felt nice. Because after all, what do we even do this for? We could just read blogs and leave the occasional comment. But we're here for each other, to feel a sense of appreciation. We all know how good it feels to have this savvy crew notice and appreciate your insights, or your research, or even just your longevity. ;)
That brought to mind a minor incident that, I have to admit, damaged my feeling of comraderie with Cranberry more than I realized at the time. A few months back I had posted something, a mini-essay, researched, but nothing huge, making a very specific point about player acquisition, draft v. FA. It ended with the words "What do you guys think?" It didn't generate major response (as I recall, Shheye was positive, and engaged a bit). Then several posts later Cranberry said exactly the same thing I had, down to the sentence structure, seemingly as if the thought had just occurred to him, without acknowledging my contribution or my question. It rankled me, and in retrospect I realize that it hurt my feelings. He didn't say ANYTHING mean to me, but I just projected shit, made it mean stuff: Did he knowingly do it to piss me off? Did he dislike my writing so much that he chose not to read my posts? Did he disrespect me so much that he wouldn't give me props?
Even then, I actually composed a short post in response (I still have it, actually, basically asking: "Dude, would it have been so hard to preface your remarks with 'Grease, you make a good point. I agree. Here's my additional thoughts...' "), but then I decided I was being a crybaby and didn't post it. Instead, I held onto the minor resentment, and I'm sure it negatively colored my attitude toward Cranberry on other things. I think now, as you say Jon, I probably should have said "Ow. Hey, Kev, that hurts. I'm guessing it was an accident, but be careful, will ya?" Yeah, in our macho venue it would have been showing vulnerability and weakness, but it would have probably been for the better. I'll work on that.
| Jon wrote: | | The key bit of that is that we have to respect when someone is hurt. Who really wants any of us to feel crappy here?? |
Well put, Jon.
Nice post!
Good points!
Excellent breakdown!
Exactly!
Thanks. 
Oh, and: "What do you guys think?"
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Jon
Captain Douche
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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lol 
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Jon
Captain Douche
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| East Bay Grease wrote: | | That brought to mind a minor incident that, I have to admit, damaged my feeling of comraderie with Cranberry more than I realized at the time. A few months back I had posted something, a mini-essay, researched, but nothing huge, making a very specific point about player acquisition, draft v. FA. It ended with the words "What do you guys think?" It didn't generate major response (as I recall, Shheye was positive, and engaged a bit). Then several posts later Cranberry said exactly the same thing I had, down to the sentence structure, seemingly as if the thought had just occurred to him, without acknowledging my contribution or my question. |
What I'm about to post is about me and does not take anyone to task for a change here.
In the main thread, I noticed that Cranberry had posted about Kyle Boller, and I scanned rather quickly. It struck me that the implied suggestion was that we aught to be talking football. And after all the negative stuff, I thought, yep, probably right. I think it's just fine to be talking about all this too, but why not talk football too. So I posted my thoughts on the Boller signing. Afterwards I went back and read Cranberry's post ( I always do with a few subject specific exceptions) and realized I had said something quite similar. I guess the point is that if Kevin gives me a side thought any more, he just may have felt something similar, I don't know. I guess many of us have had the same experience. And there are all manor of reasons why or how a similar post could appear with out it being a slight. That said, it may be just as you experienced, only whomever the poster is can say I guess.
I generally read everyone's posts, but sometimes I throw my thoughts out and then read back through to catch up. I also have felt much the same as you describe on many occasions. Though nothing of great import. Sometimes I've taken it as a complement that my post was worth repeating or was influencing to others.
I guess I'm very much the same way in that I really appreciate feedback. But I know I don't get much, which for me is fine too really. I've learned to expect it and kinda trust that people read and take it in and then post their own stuff. I think some people interact together more, like Doc and Cranberry, but it seems to me that we generally tend to post our own takes rather than build overtly as a rule (I think it's clear we all build on others takes, just not always with a call out). Which seems fine to me. Whatever. I personally love feedback because I'm posting TO everyone, not just to run my e-mouth generally. I guess I just express to get something out too, but far more often it's FOR others to consider, and I really care what the board thinks of my posts. So it's hard to know how everyone has reacted, or if they care, or if I should stfu already about something.
But then on the other side of it, I read Dan and Kobuk and Island and really everyone else but have responded far less that I've considered and thought about their takes. It kinda feels like that's implied after all this time. I think to some extent this is due to our natural aversion to cliquishness too. Not that it doesn't go on, but it at least seems like people don't validate each other partly because we're all willing to stand on our own merits and not manufacture them.
Those seem like two polls of feedback and validation. False and self serving fanny patting to win an ally vs honest feedback to let someone know how their take effected the individual. Hell, your positive feedback there at the end of your post might be striking someone as the former. As might my response, I don't know. I took it as gratifying and dryly humorous myself. I appreciate the way you make your points creatively, complexly and yet accessibly...and most of all with wit. Does that make me a suck up? A Grease groupy?
I think the question is especially germain considering we're both loudly talking about problems on the board from relatively the same point of view. How do we not create that cliquishness while dealing with crappy issues and still appreciating others contributions?
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East Bay Grease
Official Tower of Power Stat Beaver
Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 1135
Location: Manhattan
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| Turo wrote: | Even though we've seemed to get back on topic, I feel the need to post this just for the record.
I'm asking everyone to chill out a bit. We need more football discussion and less bickering. Everyone. I don't want to be Mr. Moderator (and never really have been), but this isn't a smack forum and it isn't going to turn into one.
Quote away and argue points about football.. got no issue with that. But, we need to stop escalating one another and get off the personal attacks. Kidding around is one thing, kicking in the balls is out of bounds and will draw a flag.
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| cranberry wrote: | "Freedom of Speech"
-Just watch what you say- |
Hey, I hear you both, and to whatever extent this can lead to further constructive conversation about the forum, why don't we have it in this thread? So it doesn't corrupt the general discussion.
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Jon
Captain Douche
Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 1631
Location: Seattle, WA.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think freedom of speech is an absolute here. We could talk legality, but the most germane fact to me seems to be that we booted Fang for his opinions and posts. Many of us considered that long and hard exactly because we want a place that's as free as it can be, but I do believe cranberry that you were understandably all for kicking his can down the road.
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